DATE:  August 7, 1979
INTERVIEWER:  Kenneth West
INTERVIEWEE:  Gerald F. Healy

WEST:  Are you a native of Flint?

HEALY:  No, I was born in Watertown, New York, in 1893.  I came to Flint in 1920, January 2.

WEST:  So you have been here a long time then.

HEALY:  I’ve been here 59 years now.

WEST:  Did you start in the real estate business right away, when you came here?

HEALY:  Yes, I did, although I’m a civil engineer, a graduate of Cornell, and was a civilian employee of the Secretary of War, the War Department, after World War I.  I was in that as a lieutenant of Engineers, the Corps of Engineers, in France.  And then I accepted a job in Washington with the Secretary of War after being discharged from the army.  I came to Flint then on the invitation of a real estate man named G. A. Kelly, who had the largest real estate practice at the time.  I went into business for myself in 1924 and have specialized in commercial and industrial real estate since then.  For several years, I was a partner of Robert Gerholz.  The firm was known as Gerholz and Healy.  We built quite a few houses, mostly in the northwest section of Flint.

WEST:  Around what time was that, sir?

HEALY:  During the Second World War, around 1940.

WEST:  Were you a partner with Gerholz, then, at the time of the strike in ’36 and ’37?

HEALY:  Yes.  No, not ’36.  I think from ’38 until ’41.

WEST:  But you had been in the real estate business for quite a few years, then, when the strike did break out.

HEALY:  Since 1920, yes.

WEST:  Was there anything in the nature of the business, the real estate business, at that time that would have made you particularly opposed to the strike, or was it just the effect that you perceived...?

HEALY:  Nothing particularly to the real estate business, but all businessmen were concerned, as all citizens of Flint were.  Because of the nature of the strike, it was tying up operations and was economically affecting the Flint situation, as far as business was concerned.

WEST:  Had the real estate business taken something of an upturn by ’36?  I know that there was a real crisis in ’31 and ’32, and there were few houses started, and I guess real estate, like most businesses, were facing...

HEALY:  We were facing somewhat of a comeback, yes, but it hadn’t reached the heights that it did in the ‘20s.  During the ‘20s, real estate was real active.  Housing was short.  It’s interesting to note that when I came to Flint in 1920, there were quite a few billboards directed by the Chamber of Commerce that said, “Flint Needs 8000 Houses.  How Many Will You Build?”  And then General Motors formed the Modern Housing Corporation, which hired Du Pont Engineering to come here and build something like 900 houses simultaneously with small-gauge tracks and lots of equipment.

WEST:  Did the Depression put an end to that building program, or had it run its course by the time of the crash in ’29?  I know that Flint was chronically short of housing since about 1910—I suppose, for that matter, when Buick started.

HEALY:  Well, that had run its course by the time of the Sit-Down Strike.

WEST:  How would you characterize the housing situation in Flint at the time of the Strike in ’36 and ’37?  Was there still a shortage of good housing for the masses of people?

HEALY:  Yes, there was still a shortage, and it wasn’t as acute as it had been in the early ‘20s, nor as acute as it was once the war started, the Second World War.   My connection with it?

WEST:  Well, your connection with building activities in the ‘30s particularly.  I’m thinking of...

HEALY:  I didn’t embark in the house building activities until after the Sit-Down Strike, so I was not building homes.

WEST:  You weren’t building houses.

HEALY:  No.  I’m sorry.  The Kelly Company was building some houses, and as vice-president of that company, why, I was.  But it wasn’t the same degree as later, in volume, as later on that Gerholz-Healy built houses.

WEST:  I see.  Now in 1934, the Civil Works Administration, I think, undertook a housing survey of Flint.  Did you know of that survey at all?

HEALY:  At the time I did, but it is very faint for me now to remember any details about that.

WEST:  It has been a long while.  Now, getting into the specific events, then, of the strike.  The strike occurred at the end, the last couple of days of 1936, as I recall, and the Flint Alliance began----at least the newspapers began to talk about it----around the 7th of January, so a week or so after the strike had at first begun.  And then that group that is identified in the newspapers, I think, as 200 professional and business people, I think that was the group that you were involved in.  That comes into the newspapers around a little later, on January 11th or so.  But there must have been considerable background to the organization of that group before it hit the paper.  I wonder if you could...

HEALY:  Well, I’ll give you my memory of it.  I was asked to head up a group of downtown businessmen and be chairman of that movement.  Shortly after getting in it, I realized that it was gonna be a delicate situation, so I prevailed upon Arthur Sarvis to be co-chairman with me.  We had quite a few experiences.  One, Arthur Kudner had the advertising account of Buick at that time, the Kudner Agency out of New York.  He was a Lapeer boy, he come originally from... But he was one of the two outstanding advertising men in the country, the other being Theodore MacManus in Detroit.  At a meeting attended by the plant managers, Mr. Kudner suggested that all of the publicity emanating from Flint was occasioned by the striking people and that it was national and international news.  He said that “you people (meaning the manufacturers) are concerning yourself with refuting statements made two or three days ago.  You are not creating any news that would have publicity value.”  When asked what his recommendation would be, he said that you can’t fight women.  He said, “Why don’t you organize a group of Flint women with fur coats, cloth coats, all kinds of women, and let them parade to the city hall, and they will carry banners saying ‘Keep the Reuthers out of Flint and let them go back to Toledo’ (the Reuthers had evidently come from there and were leading the strike forces) and at the city hall, they will...Mr. McLogan, Ed McLogan, who was then mayor, would greet them.  Now there was nothing that Mr. McLogan could do, but the cameramen will be there.  It will be national news with these placards,” and so forth.  So we arranged with the different women’s organizations to turn out several hundred women.  At 11:30 that night, Red Curtice called me and said, “Jerry, can you stop that parade of women tomorrow?”  I said, “My goodness, Art Kudner recommended it, and it is all set up, and it really does no harm.”  He said, “Yes, but I told the president of GM, Mr. Knudsen, who in turn promised Governor Murphy that nothing would happen in Flint for the next three days.  We want to keep everything very quiet, and Governor Murphy is going to help.”  I said, “Red, I think that you are making a mistake, but, yes, if you ask it, we will stop the parade.”  So I called up these ladies, and we called it off.  Nothing happened with Governor Murphy, except he sent the troops in here and he let the strikers retain their loudspeakers that were circulating in trucks and was a great bone of contention that these loudspeakers were inciting violence.  Governor Murphy protected these loudspeakers.  Of course, we (meaning the Flint Alliance) were very much disappointed we hadn’t been permitted to have that parade.

WEST:  When was that parade scheduled for?  Do you recall anything on the... It would have been before February 1st, though.

HEALY:  I might comment on the fact that the number of reporters from many, many papers, plus the number of cameramen, added up to several hundred.  The lobby of the Durant Hotel would be filled with ‘em, until it was a very...  People have told me, who were on trips around the world, that the news of Flint during the previous day was at their staterooms each morning.  That’s how much copy there was on it at that time.

WEST:  Did you know any of those reporters particularly?

HEALY:  Paul Gallico was one.  I had lunch with Paul Gallico a couple of times, and he became quite an author afterwards, you know, but at that time he was a reporter.  Another incident that I recall----I don’t know whether you will want to use this or not, but to me it’s quite dramatic.  I was at a dinner party one night, when I got a call from Jack Barringer, who was City Manager at that time, and he said, “Are you where you can talk in private?”  I said, “No.”  And he said, “Can you get to a phone?”  I went across the street to a friend’s house, and he said, “Can you get 20 men that can handle guns and augment our police department at the South End of Flint?  We know that several buses have left Toledo, and we don’t have the manpower to cope with it.  Can you do that?  Can you be there within the hour?”  I said, “I think so.”  I arranged for trustworthy people that I knew that could handle firearms, and they reported at that time.  Well, the big fracas that Barringer feared didn’t come off.  There was no need for them, but it is a little interesting in retrospect to think that the city manager was scared about the safety of Flint and wanted auxiliary police.

WEST:  Yes, that’s right.  Now later on, I understand that—this would have been early in February----I believe that it was Barringer who was asking for the creation of a very large auxiliary police force, up to 500 men or so.  Was that somewhat later to the incident that you are describing?

HEALY:  Yes.

WEST:  Do you remember anything of that?

HEALY:  No.  No, I remember that it happened, but I didn’t have any particular part in that.

WEST:  Do you recall who it was that specifically asked you to form this business group, how it got off the ground?  From whom did it originate?

HEALY:  Well, some of the General Motors, I think Red Curtice.

WEST:  You think Red Curtice.

HEALY:  And Arnold Lenz.

WEST:  And Arnold Lenz.

HEALY:  I recall him definitely asking me.

WEST:  Would Mike Gorman have been involved in that?  He was editor of the Flint Journal at that time.

HEALY:  Not----of course he was writing the copy, but he wasn’t involved, as far as we were concerned.  I’ll tell you one other episode.  George Boysen, who later became mayor of Flint, was paymaster at the Buick, and he was very well liked.  One night he wanted to talk with Mr. Sarvis and myself, and we were in a room at the Durant Hotel, the three of us, when he said that the hammer men from Buick were going to march in the Fisher 1 plant, South End, where they were barricaded in and had weapons on the roof and so forth.  The Buick employees were very loyal to Buick and loyal to Flint, and they didn’t like this strike.  The strike was composed of Chevrolet workers and particularly Fisher Body, who seemed to be the troublemakers.  This evening, George Boysen said that the hammer men, who were all powerful, big fellows, were going to march to the Fisher plant and clean out those people who were barricaded in there, because they had no sympathy for the strike and what was going on.  We said to Boysen,  “Violence begets violence,” and that we don’t think that it should be done.  They were waiting for Mr. Boysen’s OK, because they trusted him, and he was to give the OK, which he wanted to do and was very keen about, at eight o’clock.  He insisted that he was going to do it anyway, that it was the thing to do.  So we locked the door and said, “You got to fight both of us, but you are not going to get out of this room at eight o’clock,” and we kept him there.  And the hammer men didn’t march.  Now, looking back at it, there is a couple of things that I would change, if I could run the world.  One thing is that I would have let those women parade.  The second is that I would have let those hammer men march.

WEST:  It’s you view, in retrospect, then, in looking back on it, that it probably would have taken force, then, to----

HEALY:  Clean out the Fisher.  They were...It seemed to everybody that they were in the wrong to take over the plant and barricade themselves as they did at Chevrolet.

WEST:  Do you think that----again, in retrospect; we can’t prove this one way or the other, but in retrospect—that the use or the intimation that you were prepared to use coercion would have been enough to force them out, or would there have been violence?

HEALY:  Well, it seems to me that we might have resisted that so that it would have been stopped.  The union movement wouldn’t have been stopped, but it might have hit its peak in Toledo or somewheres else.  All right, we think that Flint could have been spared that, but not the union movement.  But at that time, it seemed there were pretty high-handed tactics that were being used by the strikers.

WEST:  I was wondering if the city government was involved closely in working with you, Barringer and Police Chief Wills and the Commission generally.  Did you get support generally from the city?

HEALY:  Well, they were trying to keep peace and prevent violence.  It wasn’t that they were taking sides.  However, these were pretty high-handed methods to take over a plant and stop production, see.  The judge at that time, Judge Gadola, ruled that the loudspeakers were not to be permitted, and the Governor overruled him.  But that the different things that were happening at that time seemed to disrupt all of the economic well-being of Flint.  And the police department were not sympathetic to the strikers, and they were not a part of that movement.  They were just trying to keep peace, and the peace was being disturbed.

WEST:  Did you have any premonitions in the weeks or months before the strike broke out in late December that there was trouble brewing in the plants?


WEST:  It took you by surprise, then.

HEALY:  Yes.

WEST:  I suggest that because we know now, on looking back on it, that there were UAW organizers in town from the summer of ’36, Mortimer and Travis, and some of ‘em.

HEALY:  One thing that I was trying to bring to... You asked about the police.  One of the active police officers, detective, went to the chief and said that the two troublemakers are the Reuther brothers.  “Now, let my partner here, Joe and me, take those Reuthers out to the city limits and beat them up a little bit with a rubber hose and tell them to go on back to Toledo.”  The chief of police refused to give them permission, and it wasn’t done.  But the thought then, and that was repeated around, so some of us knew it was that maybe the two instigators of all this could have been well on their way back to Toledo and that we would have averted the strike in Flint.  It would have happened probably somewheres else.  But we were sorry to see it thrust on us.  All the businessmen felt the same way, sorry that it was happening here.

WEST:  According to the Journal, you were one of a committee that was appointed from your group, the business and professional group, to meet with the members of the Flint Alliance, Boysen’s group.  Apparently they were somewhat separate in their organization.  What came of that meeting?  As I recall, the Journal doesn’t follow.  It just indicates that...

HEALY:  Flint Alliance had an office down in the 200 block of South Saginaw Street, and it had considerable members.  Our interest was with the business and professional men and not with Flint in general, as the Flint Alliance was.  We had no office or that, and just a friendly connection with them is all.  I don’t remember, don’t remember what happened, except that one time when George Boysen was the head of the Flint Alliance, we kept them from that violence that night.  I don’t recall any meetings, though.

WEST:  We talked to some members of the Flint Alliance, a couple of them.  There aren’t very many left, unfortunately.

HEALY:  Mr. Sarvis might give you some...

WEST:  Right.  We hope to see him, too, on this.  But a couple of people that we talked to, one particularly, was critical of the lack of organization on the part of the Alliance.  He talks about it as a large group, but rather amorphous, not well organized, not very well directed, and he is somewhat critical of the leadership, saying that Boysen was popular, but Boysen was not a very able speaker and not a very able man, and that under him the Alliance never really flourished.  Could you comment on that?

HEALY:  I think that is true.  My memory of the actual makeup of that, who were the lieutenants in the Boysen organization, I don’t recall.

WEST:  What about your own organization, the group that you were dealing with?  Were you satisfied with its cohesion and work?

HEALY:  No.  No, because we had merchants who said, “Well, I don’t want to take sides in this.  I have to sell goods to the people who were string,” and so forth.  We thought that for the good of Flint that they were cowards.  I mean we were very much upset about the fact that we couldn’t get support from some fairly prominent merchants.  We did from others.  Others were very ardent.

WEST:  We talked with some of the strikers, a number of the people who were involved in the strike, who themselves suggest that many of the small shopkeepers and local grocery store owners were supportive of the Sit-Down, that is, they did donate food, and they kept them alive, and, of course, the strikers themselves had committees to go around and solicit donations from merchants and the like.  Were you aware of those activities?

HEALY:  Yes.

WEST:  Could you counter?  Did you make any efforts to counter them?

HEALY:  No.  My memory is that those grocery men were taking care of those people in their neighborhood that were predominately in favor of the strike.  That was not true of the Buick.  The makeup of the strikers was primarily from Fisher Body and Chevrolet.  We called them troublemakers, but the Buick people were for Buick, and they wanted to keep Buick running, and they wanted to keep their jobs.  They had no sympathy with the strike.  There may have been exceptions to that, but the Buick employees as a whole were not sympathetic with the strike.

WEST:  That was true apparently at AC.  Why do you think that that was true?  Why do you think that Fisher Body and Chevrolet was somehow more susceptible to the work of “troublemakers,” as you call them, or agitators, than was Buick or AC?

HEALY:  Well, to us, and... My memory of it is that they imported a greater number of people.  Buick was the number one employer and that the people there had steady jobs and had been with Buick for years, whereas there was an influx of people, particularly from the South, to these other two plants at that time, see.  They weren’t built into Flint as much as the Buick workers were.

WEST:  The North End, around Buick, had a heavy ethnic concentration, apparently, too, Poles and Hungarians.  Do you think that that may...

HEALY:  I don’t think that that had an effect on it.  There was no racial overtones of any kind at that time.

WEST:  Did you know at all the activities of a group known as the Black Legion?  They were...Some suggested an offshoot of the Ku Klux Klan in Flint in ’36 and ’37.  Did you know any of them?

HEALY:  No, I had no personal knowledge of their makeup.  I did hear remarks of certain Communists and people with kind of a shady record, as far as loyalty to the government was concerned.  I heard many remarks about that, but I have no personal knowledge of individuals or how true the whole thing was.

WEST:  From what you’ve said, there were some differences of opinion within your group as to how to conduct the campaign against the strike, that is, there were some who were in favor of more militant courses of operations and there were others who were more hesitant about adopting that course.

HEALY:  I don’t think that we were in favor of more militant...  We were in favor of producing... We wanted these reporters to go talk with certain employees that were not in sympathy at all with them and their families, whereas the reporters were going to the dissidents and reporting their opinions.  They were getting one-sided views.  We were very much upset, and Kudner pointed out to us that all of the publicity is emanating from the strike side, and they are interviewing people who give them the kind of feelings that they want.  Now you got to get those feelings.  You got to.  And when we ... [PAUSE}
...photographed at the Fisher plant.  “Why, these things have been in the national press in the last few days.  There is another side to it.  Why don’t you get that?”  They said, “We just report what we see.  You create something, and we’ll write it.” “Why don’t you go and talk to some of the people that are not sympathetic?  Go to the employees of General Motors.  Go to some of the Buick employees.”  “No, let them come forward, or let must produce them,” see, which was a little difficult to do.  So we were very much upset about the one-sided picture that was being sent to the country.

WEST:  You say you had some difficulties getting the other side.  Did you go out to talk to Buick people, then, or interview them, or?

HEALY:  And taking a reporter along?

WEST:  Yeah.

HEALY:  No.  We urged the reporters to do this.  We didn’t produce people, which, in retrospect, hindsight, we maybe should have done.

WEST:  Did Paul Gallico give a fair representation?

HEALY:  Like all the other reporters, he wrote what he saw.  And the union or the strikers were really producing activity.

WEST:  They were more effective, then, the union was, in terms of publicity.

HEALY:  Yes, yes, we were not as effective, either the Flint Alliance or our group of downtown businessmen.  I don’t think we had any caption.  I mean we weren’t an organized group with a name and a chairman.  We just held meetings, and the majority of the businessmen were with us.  When I told you before about some of them saying, “Oh, I don’t want to come out.  Yes, I’ll give you money.  I’ll do this, but don’t quote me.  I want to sell to all the people.”

WEST:  Were there professional people, attorneys and doctors and ministers, involved in it too?

HEALY:  Yes, yes, yes.

WEST:  Are any of them still alive?  Do you know of anyone besides yourself that I could contact?

HEALY:  I suppose.  Start with Art Sarvis.  His memory is usually pretty good.

WEST:  But I run across some names of people who were apparently from the newspaper again that were intimately involved with your group.  There was Reverend E. H. Longman, from the Central Church, Christ Church.  Is he still alive, do you know?

HEALY:  I don’t know.

WEST:  And Attorney C. J. Lynch?

HEALY:  No, he’s dead.  His widow lives down near us in Florida.

WEST:  Dr. C. H. O’Neil?

HEALY:  Charlie O’Neil.  No.  No, he’s not alive, I mean.  They felt like the rest of us did.

WEST:  Morris Pelavin?

HEALY:  Oh, he’s still here.

WEST:  Was he active in the group, then?  I recall that he made a... He’s quoted in the Journal, I think, as making a speech at one time that was sympathetic, somewhat sympathetic to your group.

HEALY:  To the strikers.

WEST:  No, I thought it was towards your group.

HEALY:  I forget that, but I know him, and I know that he is here yet.  Morrie, Morrie Pelavin, the father.  There is a son, Mike.  They are in partnership together.  Who else?

WEST:  Well, I got C. T. Ray, who was the manager of Sears at the time.

HEALY:  Chancy Ray.  I don’t know where he is.  He went from here to Ann Arbor.

WEST:  Then there is Leonard Freeman.

HEALY:  Well, he is not alive.  Freeman Dairy.  Out of it came the McDonald Dairy of today.

WEST:  And then there was Otto H. Powell, president of the State Trucking Company.

HEALY:  He is not around.  He was in the automobile business, and his partner was George Barnes, who later died in California.  You see, now, most of these men were older at that time.  Of course, I’m a little unusual, because the Lord has let me live so long.  My contemporaries are gone, most of them.  I can’t think of anybody else.  I can think of them, but they are gone.

WEST:  I want to ask you a hypothetical question now, one that is difficult to answer, because you were confronted with a certain situation, of course, and not with another one.  But, looking back on it, if the strike had been conducted along more conventional lines, you know, an outdoor strike, would you have been less opposed to it than you were, given the fact that it was a sit-down strike?  In other words, was the nature of the strike, the type of the strike, the chief thing that you were concerned with, or was it just the strike itself?

HEALY:  No, I think it was the type of the strike was what exercised us.  The working conditions at the General Motors plants were not of great concern to us.  Naturally if you were there at that time and you were engaged in some other pursuit, why, what management and labor did was you heard about it, but you were expert enough to even criticize the other side.  But when the strikers came in and took over and stopped our production, stopped the flow of money, why, we were all exercised at the type, at the methods employed by the strikers.

WEST:  Did some of the people who were involved understand the consequence of a successful strike on further labor organization and agitation in Flint?  I’m thinking that after the strike was concluded and GM was forced to sign an agreement recognizing in effect the United Auto Workers that there was, according to the newspapers at least, a period of time that was quite hectic in Flint.  There were strikes at the Durant Hotel and I think attempts to organize restaurant employees, cleaners and dyers.  Do you remember any of those?

HEALY:  I remember that they happened, yes.  Those strikes seemed to be patterned after the UAW strike, that is, they were threatening type of things.  We didn’t argue the economics of it.  We just didn’t like picket lines and the holding up of business and so forth and are more common today.  In that day, they were not very common, and we weren’t too much pleased at that type of strike, either.

WEST:  Were you involved politically at all in Flint at the time?  I’m thinking that after the strike was over again, the UAW feeling its oats, as it were, feeling its muscle, trying to make itself felt politically in Flint in terms of overturning the City Commission and overturning the school board.  I know that they ran some people for the school board shortly after the strike.  I wonder if you were involved in any of that?

HEALY:  Well, not in any important position.  The school board remained very representative of the city of Flint, because the men who held the position were prominent doctors, bankers, businessmen, and the school board had very good administration and didn’t have the upsets and the troubles that has been occasioned more recently.  I know recently the teachers’ union seemed to have great political influence in picking the school board members.  But I know that I wasn’t active in any political movements at the time.  Later on I worked with Mr. Summerfield in different things that were done.  I am an ardent Republican now, and at one time I was a Democrat.  When I came here originally I was a...  At that time time, no, Mr. Summerfield wasn’t in politics at the time of the Sit-Down Strike, and neither was I.

WEST:  One last question, really, I suppose, summing it all up.  As you look back on your activities in connection with it, why did your efforts fail, or do you think that they did fail?  In retrospect it would seem that they did.

HEALY:  Governor Murphy’s influence, which was all with the strikers.

WEST:  Do you think that your organization... You have indicated that your organization may have not done all of the things that it...

HEALY:  We were prevented from doing it.  That one episode that I told you about was definitely at the doorstep of Governor Murphy to Knudsen to Curtice to me to call that parade off.  Yes, we felt frustrated.  We thought that things should have been different.  We didn’t like the violence.  We didn’t like the occupation illegally of the plants.  Our judge ruled against that and said that they must get out.  The sheriff tried to enforce it, but he was powerless when the state stepped in and sent the militia.

WEST:  Do you think that it could have been enforced peacefully?  Would the strikers have resisted?  That’s another one of those hypothetical questions, but it must have been debated at the time whether the sending of troops or force against the strikers would have got them out without bloodshed or whether there would have been bloodshed.

HEALY:  We think that it would have been a different type of strike entirely, and we thought that the law should have come first and that it was done illegally, the seizure of the plant.  We thought that the governor should----which we expected and General Knudsen expected and Red Curtice expected, and the opposite happened.  Had it happened----it’s hypothetical, of course----but we think that it would have been entirely different.  The union movement has become very beneficial, except that the pendulum swings.  In my opinion, today I think that they have too much power, too much political power.

WEST:  In retrospect, though, do you think that the success of the UAW was in the long run beneficial?

HEALY:  It would have probably occurred, but it might have been, this trouble, might have been hoisted off on some other community, Detroit or Toledo or some of the other places where they were having trouble at the time.  We didn’t like to be in the vanguard.

WEST:  Looking back on it now, what do you think the role of General Motors itself during the strike?  You indicated, and indeed other sources indicated, that General Motors in a sense ordered you off of it and pulled you back from certain steps that you would have liked to have taken.

HEALY:  General Motors did because of Governor Murphy.  Looking back at it, we blame the state.  We don’t blame General Motors.  They were apparently willing, Knudsen in Detroit, Curtice here, and he was head of the Plant Committee.  No, we don’t fault General Motors, although we weren’t conversant with things that might have been rectified in the plants to benefit the employees.  I mean we didn’t get into the labor relations, and they weren’t given as widespread publicity as they are today.

WEST:  Was there a difference between Red Curtice (Harlow Curtice) and Knudsen in their attitudes towards the union?  One gets the impression that Curtice was a little boiled, perhaps.  Knudsen was the one who wanted to settle at almost any cost to get production going, because he was more of a production man.

HEALY:  Well, my personal feeling is, today as well as then, that the owners don’t run the plant.  Stockholders run them, and production is supreme with all of management.  I have said this before.  They settled for peace to get this year’s production out, and sometimes they settle on a course, and we think that they weren’t concerned with their immediate production problems and that in the long run things would be a little more ideal.  Owners of plants would close the plants.  The managers of General Motors were not in a position to do that.  I mean that the owners were the stockholders.  The salaried employees got a bonus if they had production this year.  I think that today, while we applaud the number of stockholders that Michigan Bell has, all the working people have stock and it’s probably healthy and good.  But at that time we didn’t think that General Motors was too hard-boiled.

WEST:  Well, I want to thank you so much for talking to me.  Is there anything else that you can think of?

HEALY:  Hey, I got another thing that I want to talk about. I don’t know if I’m giving impressions and memories that you ask for.

WEST:  No, that’s what I want.

HEALY:  Doctor, it’s been nice to meet you.

WEST:  Well, very nice to meet you, sir.